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Bergman Flies


Garhan
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http://www.classictr.../raybergman.php

 

Lets start the conversation here on tying Bergman Flies. All dressers or tiers are welcomed. Club member or not, as long as your on this forum and your willing to get involved then your eligible.

 

But if you want to purchase the shadow box(s) you will have to purchase a ticket to the fall banquet to place your bid.

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Another fun go around. Count me in on the first plate.

 

after one gets done with these he should be able to do quill wing with his eyes closed. Mind you my are closed at the best of times.

 

I guess it would be sporting to use fake eye lashes for tails here. Ray would roll over in his grave if he heard that one.

 

Tight Lines Always

Dennis S

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Another fun go around. Count me in on the first plate.

 

after one gets done with these he should be able to do quill wing with his eyes closed. Mind you my are closed at the best of times.

 

I guess it would be sporting to use fake eye lashes for tails here. Ray would roll over in his grave if he heard that one.

 

Tight Lines Always

Dennis S

 

lol dennis...to funny...

 

I think we should maybe look at tying all the flies on the same hook size. I am inclined to think that it should be a size 6 or even a 4 in a 3399 or 3906B. Only because with all the married wings it mights be easier to find the colours needed in a Goose Shoulder. After having gone through all the Edmonton, Calgary and Red Deer stores, it may be very difficult to find duck quills to do this work in the appropriate colours and match sets. Your thoughts.

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Gary I see where your coming from on that, it will make looking for quill material a lot easier. Also with a bit bigger hook it will help us inexperinced quill wing tyers.

I was on Global Fly Tyer web site and they have some very nice Bergman patterns on there.

 

Tight Lines Always

Dennis S

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Bustard, McCaw, Blue Chatterer, Swan, Summer Duck, Cock of the Rock?

Where does one legitamately source these materials?

And if we're only doing one good version fo each for the plate, can group acquisition of material happen?

I'd hate to spend a lot of $ acquiring more than a lifetime supply of bustard.

Edited by dave robinson
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Bustard, McCaw, Blue Chatterer, Swan, Summer Duck, Cock of the Rock?

Where does one legitamately source these materials?

And if we're only doing one good version fo each for the plate, can group acquisition of material happen?

I'd hate to spend a lot of $ acquiring more than a lifetime supply of bustard.

 

I agree Dave. But here is the fun part. You can beg, barter, borrow or steal from fellow fly tiers if you dont or are unable to invest or source material. As for sourcing if you are inclined I will post a couple of suppliers that would carry these materials as they are traditional Atlantic Salmon pattern material. Also we are not saying under current conditions for source or expense that you can not use reasonable substitutes. We all draw on our resources in different ways to suit our own needs and desires, none are right or wrong. It is an exercise only to advance ourselves and to become better tiers no matter what your approach will be.

 

No one is saying you have to purchase, just be resourceful. Kind of like the old Treasure Hunting games we used to play as children, get my drift. Just come up with a reasonable facsimile of the original and focus more on the quality of what you tie and learn how to work with other materials. But I am not saying that a group purchase is out of order either. Too each there own.

 

 

http://www.feathersmc.com/

 

http://www.featheremporium.com/

 

http://www.salmonfli...substitutes.htm

 

Both are good sources to try out. And there is a sub list that the Salmon Fly tiers use and is expectable practice. I can see a dying session coming out of this for some of use as well. That would be a very cool learning curve. We might even have a someone that could share there experience here with us or possibly do any evening class..

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Dave I'm thinking we will have to do a bunch of substatueding of wing material.

 

Now I got one very nice bag of Macrame for Don on the weekend that I could use as a substatued.

 

I'm sure Ray is trembling in his grave knowing I'm going to try and tye some of his wonderful flies. Either that or laughing his backside off wishing he had fake eye lashes to work with back then.

 

Tight Lines Always

Dennis S :fishing::fish_jump:

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Maybe we could form the Bergman Flies Cooperative and do a joint material purchase.

We might even get a volume discount,

As for Macramae as a substitute, possibly if we soak it in Scotch long enough.

Come to think of it, maybe we won't care about subtitutes if the tyers are soaked in Scotch long enough. :drinked:

Edited by dave robinson
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Here's an off-the-wall idea.

How about we pick a pattern or two and do them completely with substitute material.

Examples:

Tinsel made from silver gum wrapper

Floss made from dyed dental floss or old sock yarn

Hair made from macrame yarn

Ribbing of glitter thread

And I'd love to muder a couple of Magpies for hackle :vikinjg::

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Dave I can sure see some real possiblities.

 

Now Ray is going to be twitching and quivering and eyes will roll up in his forehead with this one.

 

We could do 2 of each the orginal as best as we can and then a recreated using what ever material one would like as long as it creates a somewhat close replaca of original. :drinked::devil::eek:

 

Tight Lines Always

Dennis S :fishing::fish_jump:

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Ok, where are we going to start with tying the Bergman flies? And what are we going to use as a reference?

 

In my copy of Bergman's Trout (Lanham, MD: Derrydale Press, 2000) there are 19 plates of flies, of which 15 were in the original edition of 1938, and 4 that were added in the second edition of 1952.

 

There are 9 plates of wet flies (42-57 flies per plate for a total of 435 flies);

1 plate of Wet Flies, Streamers and Nymphs (31 flies);

Steelhead and Streamer patterns (25 flies);

Additional Streamers and Bucktails (20 flies);

Special Dry Flies (35 flies);

2 more plates of Dry Flies (70 flies);

New Wet Flies (37 flies);

New Dry Flies (37 flies);

2 plates of Spinning Lures (24 flies).

 

This is a lot of flies.

 

The plate on the link that Gary provided is plate # 5 in the book (from Kate to Martin).

 

Don Bastian is tying the Ray Bergman collection for Hatches magazine http://hatchesmagazine.com/blogs/Hatches/category/ray-bergman-collection/ The complete introduction has useful information about pattern recipes and substitutions. Bastian is tying 483 wet flies for his collection (from Trout, and Bergman's other books). The colour pictures and recipes for the patterns Bastian has tied are excellent (234 to date) and much easier to follow than the original instructions from Bergman.

 

Given that there are so many flies, I think we need to answer some questions first.

 

How many flies per plate? This is easier if we all stick with one size and type of hook. I am ok with the 3399 or 3906B.

 

How many plates do we want to do?

 

How many of us want to commit to the project?

 

I am sure there are more questions that we need to answer, but this is a start.

 

Michael

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Michael good information. I think first we need to establish how many tiers. So to that end lets say if you are joining speak up by mid February 15th. Once we have that we can divy up the flies by plate. I think this should or could be a project that takes a few years to complete. So if we decide to do Plate 1 and then divide the total flies on the plate amongst the tiers we are good for that plate. This plate then in turn can go into this coming years Dinner and Auction in the fall. If that is not enough and everyone is willing to take on more then lets do two Plates in total. Your thoughts?

 

This will give time for this to circulate based on the Feb 15th timeline and we can divide up total plates for the first round based on those involved and commited to this and what they are able and willing to take on. I can see one plate for sure barring we only have a few tiers. If there is more involvement then two plates and maybe a third.

 

So an example for dividing up the list of flies by plate we could be doing something along this thought. If there are 6 tiers for a plate of 31 flies. Then those that sign up in an order or by draw will get alloted flies in order number 1-5 for tier #1, then 6-10 for tier two, etc...until they are all assigned. Just a suggestion. Someone might have to pick or might wish to pick up an extra fly or two if they like to complete the odd number in the division.

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First yes I would like to be included.

 

To start I suggest to do 1 plate at a time. Then if we get better we can do more plates at a time if we like to.

I like the idea of a draw system but I'm easy any way we do it.

We should all work off the same reference info that's for sure. I do have a copy of Trout but not sure what addition it is I would have to check. We also have a copy in the club Liberary.

 

As much as I joke about, I am looking forward to doing this. It just brings us back to the roots of fly tying and to appreciate how fly tying & fishing has evolved. Besides these patterns work.

 

Tight Lines Always

Dennis S

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So far we then have the following people involved: (in no particular order)

1. Dennis S.
2. Michael Dell
3. Jim T. (Snow Wolf)
4. Gary Hanke
5. Junior- Rick
6. Aaron Phillips
7. Swingwet (Tony)
8. Dipperdan (Dan) - DONE
9. Barry Wright (BJW)
10.
11.
12.
etc....

I think this is correct, if not let me know and I will edit. We could have 31 tiers that way we only have to do one each.....cool

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For now I personally would like to focus just on Ray Bergmans wetflies. So we would need pictures of plates with the patterns or go by the website provided and click on Wet Flies and just tie those one hundred (approax) wet flies listed. I think the dries, streamers, nymphs, etc... can be another project for another time or a second thread can be started to focus on a select group again.

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I started tying flies 2 years ago now.The flies I started with were Bergman's wets,from TROUT.I have 528 different wetfly patterns tied and mounted in frames hanging on my wall.They are tied on hook sizes 10-14.

 

So I'd be in!

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Gary,

 

Are you referring to the 100 or so wet flies listed on this website http://www.classictr.../raybergman.php ?

 

I don't want to be too picky, but this is J.B. Martin's list of classic wet flies, not Ray Bergman's. Several of these patterns like the 5 Athertons, the 4 whiskey flies starting J.B., the Hendricksons, and probably more, are not in Bergman's book.

 

I am in complete agreement to tie the wet flies. I will look for pictures of the Bergman plates so we can all start from the same source.

 

Michael

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Gary,

 

Are you referring to the 100 or so wet flies listed on this website http://www.classictr.../raybergman.php ?

 

I don't want to be too picky, but this is J.B. Martin's list of classic wet flies, not Ray Bergman's. Several of these patterns like the 5 Athertons, the 4 whiskey flies starting J.B., the Hendricksons, and probably more, are not in Bergman's book.

 

I am in complete agreement to tie the wet flies. I will look for pictures of the Bergman plates so we can all start from the same source.

 

Michael

 

es I was looking at that website Michael. But I mistakenly thought they were all Bergmans. So your right, thats not what I am really looking for. If there are photos of his plates with the fly names. they should be posted here and then we can look at the big picture and divide it up as needed to accomplish the first leg of this journey. Your thoughts?

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Yes, I've been looking for photos of the plates online. I can find pictures of some of the plates but not good enough to see the details, and without the pattern names which are printed on the page opposite in the book.

 

What I suggest is that we try the first plate of 42 flies (from Abbey to Bostwick) which is 7 rows of 6 flies each (as below) using the pictures and recipes from the Hatches website.

 

Row 1: Abbey, Academy, Adder, Adirondack, Admiral, Alder.

 

Row 2: Alexandra, Allerton, Apple Green, Arthur Hoyt, Artful Dodger, Babcock.

 

Row 3: Barrington, Baldwin, Beauty, Beamer, Bee, Beamis Stream.

 

Row 4: Beatrice, Beeman, Belgrade, Big Meadow, Bishop, Bisser.

 

Row 5: Black Dose, Black Gnat, Black Gnat Silver, Black Palmer Red Tag, Black June, Black Moose.

 

Row 6: Black Prince, Black Quill, Block House, Blue Blow, Blue Bottle, Blue Dun

 

Row 7: Blue Jay, Blue Professor, Blue Quill, Bob Lawrence, Bog Pond, Bostwick

 

This can be a test plate to see how this works. I suggest preserving the order of the plates even though there are mistakes in alphabetization (Bee before Beamis). So the idea would be to present the flies in exactly the order they are in the book, but with substitutions for materials up to the tyer. Please note that Don Bastian has moved the Bee into correct alphabetical order, but the first 42 flies of his collection are the same as the first plate.

 

This plate has 42 flies. Most of the wet fly plates have 48 flies, with one plate (#8) having 49 (not 57 as I mistakenly counted before).

 

If we have 6 tyers we could each do one row and one fly from the final row. Or we could each do one fly from each row as our names are numbered above, i.e., Dennis would tye the first fly from each row, I would do the second, etc. Either way we would be responsible for tying 7 flies for this plate.

 

 

Or if we get more signed up, then we can divide the plate as Gary suggested.

What does everyone think?

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This arrangement sounds good to me also.

 

Just wonder I think Swingswet also said he was in on this one.

 

Aaron surely you can talk your Dad into giving it a try. We did his streamer fly now he can suffer along with the rest of use with these quill wings and Fake eyelash tails OOP's did I say that. :opps:

 

I don't want to do the Black Dose or the Blue Blow some how it just doesn't sound good. :barf:

 

Tight lines always

Dennis S :fishing::fish_jump:

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I also like your suggestions Michael, but am really hoping for some more tyers. As I mentioned before, never tied a classic wet and am slightly intimidated by having to do 7 lol Yikes! :eek:

 

Again the adventure Aaron, ask and people will help you. Nothing to be intimidated about. It is a new learning curve thats all. What would go so wrong that it would affect life, living, fishing or the world. Absolutely nothing.

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This arrangement sounds good to me also.

 

Just wonder I think Swingswet also said he was in on this one.

 

Aaron surely you can talk your Dad into giving it a try. We did his streamer fly now he can suffer along with the rest of use with these quill wings and Fake eyelash tails OOP's did I say that. :opps:

 

I don't want to do the Black Dose or the Blue Blow some how it just doesn't sound good. :barf:

 

Tight lines always

Dennis S :fishing::fish_jump:

 

Maybe if you get a row you dont really like you could possibly swap with someone for a favour or a barter of some type....lol.

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Aaron,

 

Wet flies are easy compared to streamers so you have all the skills you need. There may be some issues with materials, but substitutes are allowed, and it will certainly be easier than finding streamer feathers that match.

 

Gary,

 

Yes, let's just wait and see how many tiers we get. If Swingswet is in then it's one row each.

 

Michael

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