SnoWolf Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 I notice that a lot of the older streamer patterns are not weighted. What is the proper method of fishing them..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garhan Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 I think when you are talking about this, it would be related to what can be considered today as classic patterns versus modern patterns. The flyfishing world of today has changed considerably as has flytying. It was taboo to consider lead weight in fly patterns for many years or even centuries, let alone using a strike indicator to monitor your flies travel while being submersed. Streamers of old if you want to call it that where tied without lead because it wasn't required in most situations. There was also limited access to the material as a tier as well. It would hold true even today in many scenarios Anglers used to use there different sink rates to manipulate current and depth with varying leader lengths. It was using the different sink rate on your flylines that made it all possible and was considered more proper. When I started this was still very prevalent in the think of my mentors. This also forced an angler into presenting a good cast and proper mending to maintain a positive contacts to your fly as it swept through a hole. Wether swinging a fly across and down, using a Sawyer Method, a Brooks Method or a Lisering Lift they all demanded good line control and direct contact to your fly and the angler had to make it happen with his ability to manipulate the flyline, giving that he made the correct choice in sink rate to begin with. Today with the advancements in super sinking lines and a high volume of usage of lead and strike indicators a angler does not have to pay as much attention to manipulating a flyline to present a fly to the fishes depth. But there are still limits to this as well. Putting on a strike indicator with a heavily weighted San Juan style of fly and hand it to a person who has never flyfished before, float the Bow River (big influence on style and techniques in Alberta) and that person likely will catch a fish or two before the days is out. But what did they learn, maybe that luck has more to do with it. And guiding is a great paying job that requires little more than a taxi drivers licence. It is a simple and extremely effective method. I would say that there is no correct way now a days. But it would depend on what an individual wants to learn about there equipment and the effectiveness it has under varying conditions. Lord knows I throw my fair share of weighted flies. But I also tie many streamer without lead that I use in lakes and allow the line to take it to the depths that I want or need to attain. So to generalize my streamer boxes if they are heavily weighted they are more of a river fly and non weighted a lake pattern for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dell Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 In addition to what Garhan said, there is also the tradition of "trolling streamers." A lot of the traditional patterns were originally tied on long shank hooks and were intended to be trolled, not cast. The Carrie Stevens patterns are good examples of trolling streamers. This webpage gives a good summary of her patterns http://globalflyfisher.com/streamers/raske/stevens/stevpage.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnoWolf Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 Awesome. Thx Garry. So fly line sink rate is the key to the older patterns. So that said then there is no special reason so to speak therefore no special reason a fella could not add weight to some of those patterns to suit the anticipated needs if the day...! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnoWolf Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 Thx Micheal I do like the Carrie Stevens patterns. The method is the same thought is it not? They are intended to be fished with sinking line correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junior Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 I don't understand- what kind of mending can be applied to sinking lines? Just aerial mends? Before my time, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garhan Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 I don't understand- what kind of mending can be applied to sinking lines? Just aerial mends? Before my time, I guess. As soon as the line hits the water a mend can still be administered to place a sweeping upstream mend to allow the fly to swing properly in place. Or down stream meads of the line to allow for more sink rate before the current begins to push its magic force against the flyline. Still common today if you fish from a drift type boat with streamers against the banks especially if they have a quick drop off within a few feet of the bank.This has to be done immediately after the line hits the water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dell Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Jim, Yes, sinking lines were used. At the time Carrie Stevens was living there were no floating lines like we have today, so every line was a sinking line. Even a freshly dressed silk line would only float for a while and then become a sinking line. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junior Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I don't understand- what kind of mending can be applied to sinking lines? Just aerial mends? Before my time, I guess. As soon as the line hits the water a mend can still be administered to place a sweeping upstream mend to allow the fly to swing properly in place. This has to be done immediately after the line hits the water. I don't have the broadest selection of sinking lines. Basically intermediate and very fast. Would this still work with a type 6? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnoWolf Posted October 31, 2012 Author Share Posted October 31, 2012 Yikes. I truly do have lots to learn. Thx Micheal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garhan Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I cant see any reason why it would not in a river situation. Some of the best steelheaders and bulltrout anglers I know use and used Type 2,3,4 and hi Speed HI-Di lines with short 4-7 foot leaders and non weighted flies to get into the fishes strike zone. There was always mending involved to get a proper drift and presentation of the streamer. Good guides on the Bow would really understand this technique as well. But this was before bobbers, indicators and Spey Casting became the rage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dell Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 It's been years since I've used a type 4 sinking line to toss streamers, but it does work. Caught a lot of bull trout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfish Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 I think when you are talking about this, it would be related to what can be considered today as classic patterns versus modern patterns. The flyfishing world of today has changed considerably as has flytying.It was taboo to consider lead weight in fly patterns for many years or even centuries, let alone using a strike indicator to monitor your flies travel while being submersed. Streamers of old if you want to call it that where tied without lead because it wasn't required in most situations. There was also limited access to the material as a tier as well. It would hold true even today in many scenarios Anglers used to use there different sink rates to manipulate current and depth with varying leader lengths. It was using the different sink rate on your flylines that made it all possible and was considered more proper. When I started this was still very prevalent in the think of my mentors. This also forced an angler into presenting a good cast and proper mending to maintain a positive contacts to your fly as it swept through a hole. Wether swinging a fly across and down, using a Sawyer Method, a Brooks Method or a Lisering Lift they all demanded good line control and direct contact to your fly and the angler had to make it happen with his ability to manipulate the flyline, giving that he made the correct choice in sink rate to begin with. Today with the advancements in super sinking lines and a high volume of usage of lead and strike indicators a angler does not have to pay as much attention to manipulating a flyline to present a fly to the fishes depth. But there are still limits to this as well. Putting on a strike indicator with a heavily weighted San Juan style of fly and hand it to a person who has never flyfished before, float the Bow River (big influence on style and techniques in Alberta) and that person likely will catch a fish or two before the days is out.But what did they learn, maybe that luck has more to do with it. And guiding is a great paying job that requires little more than a taxi drivers licence. It is a simple and extremely effective method. I would say that there is no correct way now a days. But it would depend on what an individual wants to learn about there equipment and the effectiveness it has under varying conditions. Lord knows I throw my fair share of weighted flies. But I also tie many streamer without lead that I use in lakes and allow the line to take it to the depths that I want or need to attain. So to generalize my streamer boxes if they are heavily weighted they are more of a river fly and non weighted a lake pattern for me. So true Gary.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnoWolf Posted November 2, 2012 Author Share Posted November 2, 2012 I see the Carrie Stevens patterns all over the web as well as other Rangly style patterns and I never hear talk of them or of anyone fishing them locally... Why is this so...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junior Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 You're asking the wrong people. The Phillips' swear by them. Have you checked out Streamers365? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipperdan Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Very interesting topic , keep it coming. Thanks guys!!! Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dell Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Alan Grombacher ties the classic trolling streamers, as well as developing his own patterns. He is one of the tyers in Streamers 365 http://streamers365.com/ Have a look at his patterns for Maligne and Obed lakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnoWolf Posted November 2, 2012 Author Share Posted November 2, 2012 Thx Micheal an Junior I have been to 365 and that has given me these questions. I will look for Allan's flies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnoWolf Posted November 2, 2012 Author Share Posted November 2, 2012 Junior who are the Phillips..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave robinson Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 (edited) While not having much experience with it myself, I've seen streamers fished on a fixed length sinking line and worked back and forth through a pool by changing rod position and mending. That's also done on smaller streams with a floating line and sinking leader or a sink tip. I've had some success doing something similar on interior BC streams by working the fly under and into log jams. The flies I've used for this are doc spratleys, carey specials, spruce flies, 52 buicks and traditional quill wing wets like the black gnatt, royal coachman and grizzly king. I even caught a couple of browns in New Zealand by doing this in the current pillow in front of and behind large rocks. This method harks back to days as a kid spin fishing with a small spinner blade followed by a wet fly or worm. I haven't use this technique much in Alberta for some reason, Maybe it's time to give it a go. Edited November 2, 2012 by dave robinson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garhan Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I see the Carrie Stevens patterns all over the web as well as other Rangly style patterns and I never hear talk of them or of anyone fishing them locally... Why is this so...? It is truly a unique style. As well look at as a Traditional Salmon Fly Pattern. It is an accomplishment to be able to tie these patterns and now you also would be stepping into the world of "Art". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junior Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Jim, Aaron Phillips is our club Secretary. Her Dad, Barry Phillips, was a tying instructor at Reg Denny's shop, currently is a featured tyer on Streamers365, and like Aaron's brother Lowell, an occasional visitor (member?) of the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnoWolf Posted November 2, 2012 Author Share Posted November 2, 2012 Thx Junior So the answer lies likely in the tying and not in the fishability...! It seams that most prefer a quick tie fly that catches fish so this might explain the lack of use then...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garhan Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Thx Junior So the answer lies likely in the tying and not in the fishability...! It seams that most prefer a quick tie fly that catches fish so this might explain the lack of use then...? Try this. http://flyanglersonline.com/flytying/atlantic/streamers/demon.php 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fsabac Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Very nice and instructive, thanks guys for all the information. The little that I fish of streamers tends to be either on a floating line, or with a sink tip, both easy to mend. On a lake, an intermediate line is all I seem to ever need for pike! Now a question: I know these classics were tied on long-shank hooks and they look just right. However, my experience with long shanks is that they apply a lot of leverage and can come out easily. Some argue that is because the hook works itself loose and does more damage to the fish than a short shank. How much of this is true? My limited experience with the longer shank (3x-4x) is that I loose fish easily, so that is some anecdotal evidence in support of at least some of the claims. How about the rest? Florin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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